S2 Ep1: Talking about inclusion in sport for everyone with Ger McTavish

In this conversation Ger McTavish talks with me about her role as the GAA national diversity and inclusion officer , and her journey to get there. Ger shares her learning from her time as a Special Olympics development officer and gives us examples of inclusion in GAA sports for people with disabilities, the LGBTQ community, and refugees who are making Ireland their new home.

Resources from this episode

GAA Inclusion Page

Transcript of this episode


GAA, people, sport, inclusion, community, disability, , learning, work, training, diversity


Mags, Ger McTavish

Note: Before I start this episode I’d like to explain some acronyms and words that myself and Ger use.

OCO stands for the Ombudsman for Children’s Office.

GAA stands for the Gaelic Athletic Association.

UNHCR stands for the United Nations Refugee Agency

Ger also use the word grá (pronunciation similar to graw) which means love.

Mags  00:00

Welcome to Talking about all things inclusion, a podcast where I get to meet and learn from people in the field of field of inclusion in its broadest sense that inspire me. I hope they’ll inspire you to. Today I’m talking with Ger McTavish. Gera is the GAA national diversity and inclusion officer in Croke Park, and was named in the 50 most influential women in our sport in 2021, and 2022. In her role, Ger is actively showing the value of having a diverse and inclusive organisation with developments and leadership programmes, sustainable movements, and engagement of many stakeholders. She has developed and completed programme design in the areas of sport, health, human rights, community and cultural development. Ger, we first met in 2017 when we worked together to support the inaugural osios. beyond limits so much. You’re an amazing source of information and inspiration on how we can reduce barriers to participation in sport. And you are a recognised advocate for inclusion in sport. That is why I am so delighted to be chatting with you today about your continued work in this area, and vision for the future of sport for everyone.

Ger McTavish  01:15

Thanks a million Mags. But God that’s a great introduction. I’m a bit humbled by it. And also thank you very much. It’s it’s an area that I’m passionate about. And it’s an it’s an area that I’ve always worked in. So from my small beginnings in a small little rural Connemara community called Carna in Connemara. I’m also the youngest of 14. So I, I had a lot of different abilities before I came outside my door, as they say on communication and different characters and all of that. But I spent a lot of time working as a special needs assistant and spent a lot of time in the department of education, learning about additional needs of children and adults. So my background led me then into youth work and different fields of not only sports, but development and programme development, programme design, and then also reducing barriers for many people of disability, LGBT, ethnic ethnicity. So I suppose I’ve I’ve come from a lot of different maybe past roles and jobs and careers. And when I moved from the little village of Connemara, to Dublin, I went back returned to education to do a sports science and health degree. And that opened the horizon to so many other avenues that I could work in, in the sporting field as well as follow my passion, which was Gaelic football. So it’s been a long colourful career working through youth work to I suppose board to programme development to working with a lot of very peer to peer mentoring people along the way and building relationships and networks along the way. And, and that led me to my sporting career which started with ahm games promotion officer and Dublin GAA, to working with the likes of Sport Ireland as a tutor, and then working for the Irish Amateur Boxing Association, on and then going into Special Olympics as a club development manager. So all of them have led me back to the GAA. And I cover a broad range of, of areas and diversity and inclusion is the actual title of the rule. But it would it would be a very broad sense of inclusion. I think a lot of people think inclusion is just disability. But I covered the the huge broad range of inclusion when we when we speak about it, it’s not just a disability. It’s everybody in the community.

Mags  04:02

I’m glad you have said that you’re because often when we talk about diversity and inclusion, we do hone in on educational needs and disability and your work to date and particularly your work in the GAA is so much bigger than that. I’m wondering, can we start with your work in the Special Olympics because I know that has informed a lot of other work that you’ve done and you’ve you’ve kind of learned about inclusion from that work there. And you’ve you’ve done what other people are trying to do. You’ve translated it into all of those other areas of inclusion.

Ger McTavish  04:38

Yeah, so I tell people a lot when I actually got the phone call that said that I got offered the job in Special Olympics, I actually cried on the form to the HR manager. So I think she knew exactly how how important it was to me. I think what I learned in Special Olympics was the the strong foundations and processes you need to put in place to make sure you remove barriers. Many of us are in in mainstream and are very, I suppose lucky to be to be able to go to college go to work have no barriers in our way where we need to look at the guide the how to make everything we do universal and how to make it. So anybody who has an intellectual disability or a disability, or even in a wheelchair, or even injured in some type of way on crutches or anything like that, and I bring it back to also the moms in there pushing their buggies that when we look at kind of universal design learning, and I actually would have learned a lot of this from you, but also learned a lot from Special Olympics ofdon’t put barriers in the way and listen to, to the people that you’re designing the programmes for. So there’s a lot of consultation, and there has to be proper guidelines, proper kind of guiding principles, and then also looking at how we adapt a lot of our programmes, but also our material or equipment, or venues or facilities, and then the whole encompass of the environment. And then also transport getting people to do we develop do we go to the individual themselves? Or do we bring things to? And I think other ways was the labelling of a lot of our programmes as well, how we I would have learned this from Special Olympics is that looking at the capabilities of the person and not looking at the disability, what is what what maybe what does the individual need support with what also water they’re also very good at. And we can work to those strengths. So I think, through maybe programme development, being in the environment have been around many athletes with intellectual disability from the young athletes programme to the competition programmes, Special Olympics has 15 different sports, to organising all the officials for the Ireland games, to then also looking at the World Games, and then also seeing internationally what what is happening in different areas of sport and what is happening. Ireland would be very progressive in a lot of the developments we’ve done. But also as well as that looking at other European countries who would like to follow suit or would like to follow Ireland. So you end up being a mentor to some of the programmes. So it’s Special Olympics would have taught me a lot. And then we work together on the beyond limits, which was a very much a consultancy, starting off with a lot of forums and surveys, and we would have engaged and found that a lot of people with disabilities don’t like disability word being used. And that’s why we came up with beyond limits. And the whole activity about bringing all those organisations together, instead of them all being a silo, they all came under one roof for one day. And also probably networked, which hadn’t been done in a very, very long time. And people started identifying each other with each other. A lot of us are doing the same thing in this field. And I think it’s it we need to do a lot more collaboration and sharing of knowledge and sharing what is good practice what has worked well. And that’s what Special Olympics has taught me is that when you’ve done something, well make sure to share it, make sure other people get the opportunity to use it.


Absolutely. And I mean, you started off sharing when you move to GAA. So you took all of that there. What was the first thing you did when you moved to GAA to make it more inclusive?


Yeah, I think probably I would say that the GAA has been a very inclusive organisation, but never spoke about it. So the first thing was a communication plan. So they actually have had, they would have had previous to the diversity and inclusion officer, they would have had an integration and integration officer, Tony Martini, and he would have done he would have been the main person behind the development of wheelchair Herlin and Kimochi. And that is done through provincial League and competition and then an All Ireland final and usually in either in the Irish Wheelchair Association or the National indoor arena. And a lot of those programmes and they’re called the GAA games for all whatever established over 10 years ago, and they would have started programmes with the Irish special schools and ASD units or they would have had blitzes in their province and then come to Croke Park for All Ireland final. Nobody knew about those and they’ve been going on for over 10, 15 years. So the first thing I did was did a whole communication plan on on how well they were doing and how they were structured. And it communicated that to to a lot of different people. And that led into the old star programmes, which is now a club programme, which is run by huge, probably 450 clubs now who run all star programmes which are for children with additional needs. We also have adults with, with additional needs as well with some of these programmes, and they’ve turned into hubs. Because sometimes, depending on where you are in the country, you might have three or four people with additional needs, or you might have a full team. So depending on on on where you are in the country, we have a few clubs, but then we have a few hubs as well. So all of that had to be maybe a structure put on it a foundation of these, these are the steps, you need to start began your training, your coaching your safeguarding, and then also then the support systems around the programme in the club, tying it into the juvenile section or the adult section, and that they get every other exalt resource like any other team in the GAA, and I suppose not making a difference, making it part of exactly like another team. So it was moving away anything that that maybe they felt excluded, but now they were included, because they’re getting the exact same treatment and the exact same resources and support that any other team would get as well. And and it’s it’s maybe laying down that framework that that can happen very easily through the GAA to the sporting bodies, but to complement a lot of our volunteers. And I would say a lot of parents, who’s been the driving forces behind a lot of those old star programmes


You,  like I can hear from you that it’s very much equity based. Yes. And is participants. So we’re not just talking about children, we’re also talking about adults. So it’s participant centred, rather than club or sports centred. And that that seems to be a really important part of what you’re doing.

Ger McTavish  11:59

Yeah, so a lot of clubs will come to me, how do I start up here? How do I start an all star programme, and the first thing I said is, well, you need to put out an expression of interest, you also need to know the needs of the individuals who are going to be coming to you. So it is very much individual. And looking at those needs that are a lot of maybe our coaches might not have met somebody with a disability or might not have come into contact with someone with a disability. So our coaches need to sometimes move, we’d have a lot of empathy and very much compassion, and all about the community. But I also think as well, we need to know where we’re, we’re missing some maybe education or training or terminology, and that training and education needs to come with, once you’ve started an expression of interest, then you know exactly what addition. And sometimes people don’t want to give that information because it’s quite sensitive information. But what it does is that the hub’s design, the programme helps design, what needs what resources, what training, and it gives us a maybe a better understanding of the individual, but also, it also is not always negative, it’s a positive because now we know the individual strengths as well. So there is a lot more dialogue discussion, there’s probably a lot more supports putting in to the start of an all star programme at club level. Whereas some other things can be quite generic. You know, but definitely, there’s, there’s a lot more time and resources, put it into that kind of beginning phase getting it all right.

Mags  13:40

Yeah. And it goes back to what you said earlier about removing the barriers and having universal design. But it seems very intentional, if you know, you have that framework, you have that structure. So it’s accessible not only for the players, the participants, but also for the coaches and the volunteers who are working within this programme.


Yeah, I think because the GAA, we’re predominantly volunteers. So you’re giving up your time. And you’re like, a lot of our volunteers are already professional, and they bring their professional to so we have a lot of doctors, nurses, OTs, people with expertise. And what we ask is that they share those expertise to maybe someone who hasn’t come into contact with someone who has a disability or even a language barrier, like some of our ethnicities from different have come in and maybe would have had a language barrier or someone who’s nonverbal. And there would be digital resources or and I think this is where the parents are very key in that as well that the programme is developed with the individual but also with the parents of its children. And then adults with some of the service users as well. So what services do they already use and and can maybe members of that service, come and teach somewhere? volunteers because volunteers, I suppose we found, we are that ethos, we have that ethos, it’s very unique to Ireland. But we also have less time maybe we also have, it’s very hard to sit for three or four hours during the training course. So we have to be very innovative of how we do training face to face online, as well as the supports of calls and, you know, have that support systems. But we’ve also bodied up a lot of the clubs, or introduced people to other people who’ve started. So you’re not constantly just coming back to ensure that there is someone in your community or your county or your province, that you can also go and visit and maybe do a one to one, like maybe shadow them for a day. So we are looking more and more how the education training and how we can facilitate that. Maybe reach every corner because it can be quite difficult when when you’re in Croke Park, versus if you’re down at the club level. So it’s trying to be mindful of all the different layers that we have as well.


Yeah, but it seems very community focused on if you’ve got that community aspect, well, then it is going to work. Ger, we’ve talked about special education. And I know that is probably the most visible part of the work you do around inclusion. But you are a strong advocate for inclusion in sport for everyone. And that word everyone is really important. So I know you do a lot of work around advocacy for the LGBTQ community, for gender parity in sport. I mean, literally sport for everyone. Would you like to talk to talk? Would you like to talk more about that?


Yes. So we started a project with sport Ireland many years ago on let’s get visible, which is a national project. And we would have run at halftime of the smoggy all Ireland finals. And it was giving showcasing that visibility of the LGBTQ community and asking our players to come and speak and talk about how they felt in the GAA the LGFA, the Camoige. And also giving maybe role models that was the other side is that it’s okay to come out. It’s okay to be and the LGBTQ community and you’re very welcome in the organisations from the GAA, Camoige, LGFA. So it is about communication, it is about being visible. So we would have done lots of campaigns on that area. But we also would have begun work with belong to and Tene in the area of safe and supportive sporting clubs, which is an online resource to help and support. Any coach any volunteer, any official, any of our members to go online and to be able to do this training is very similar to a project they ran with some of the schools programmes. And so as we go along through the learnings, the education to training, sometimes it’s just terminology that people are maybe a little bit fearful of or never have heard, or I think societal change are starting become very open. And there’s been lots of strides that we need to look at and from the LGBTQ community, but have been part of that community. So it’s having them as maybe role models, or having them as guest speakers having them visible and actually having them in the conversations when we’re designing new programmes or if there was any concerns or barriers from them in sport and how how do we go back and address any of those are prove any of those we’d have a gender diversity working group, and also transgender working group. And both of them are working in the areas where they engage with stakeholders. They come with different scenarios. They look at best practice across Ireland international other sporting bodies. We work a lot with Sporting pride. And 2019 is when did you walked in pride for the first time in Dublin. And last year Belfast and GAA walked in Belfast pride. So it’s it’s showing that allyship it’s showing that being quite visible and also having these initiatives means that people are constantly being educated, constantly trained terminology is being used. And there is an awareness that you have to not be biassed. So there’s a lot of training happening about education, but it does take time it does take there’s a lot of engagement at the moment and we hope to continue that engagement as well. And it’s as I would say to a lot of people when we talk about diversity and inclusion it is very broad, as you said and it is about trying to roll out our diversity and inclusion training. Not just a provincial level but county level and hopefully engage with all the comms clubs to come and and do you’re training.

Mags  20:01

And when you’re when you’re trying to encourage whether it be children, young adults or older adults, who have recently not been part of our communities. So because of gender identity, which is the biggest topic at the moment, they’re not considered part of a community. How do you work on visibility? Because that’s a word you’ve used a lot. How do you work on visibility? To let them know, you are welcome? You are actually part of our community.

Ger McTavish  20:31

Yeah, I think, first of all the campaigns that we’ve done over the last number of years, reaching out to them as well and asking, Will they, anybody who’s been in contact with me, I’ve always gone back and said, Would you mind being a spokesperson for us, and we showcase maybe your case study or your story, at our healthy club conference, at different workshops at our diversity, inclusion training, they come on as special guests. So it’s actually asking people if they’re happy to share their story. And then also having them anything we do launch when it comes to diversity and inclusion. And then our main kind of training is having them speak at our trainings and having them online as part of the team. Okay.


And just then another group who I know you you try to focus on, are our guests. So at the moment, Ukrainian people are coming into Ireland in 1000s, because of what’s happening in their countries, and they’re coming in, they don’t have a community, they don’t have an outlet in terms of sport, but they’re also bringing trauma with them. How do you support those communities, to, to get together as community but also be part of the sporting community?


Yeah, I’ll probably give you an example of maybe a couple of the clubs that are actually doing it really, really well. So we would have had a couple of clubs in Louth, maybe on the border, who a lot of individuals from Ghana would have come not just Ukraine, but Ghana, and they would have started up like a six week training course in the club. And they would have learned the game of Gaelic football, or hurling around you. So they do the physical activity first. But then what they do is they set up a body system, so they engage with a senior player, or they engage with different people. So they have someone now that’s a main point of contact in the club. And they create a friendship there as well. They also asked to share the different cultures as well, so that they come and share their cultures on La na Cubanna, which is a like an intercultural activity day where people come to share their different cultures or traditions or sport, we would have done maybe, with another club, we would engage with some of the services, UNHCR, the culture and kind of refugee and migrant centres, and ask them to come with some of their expertise into the GAA club, and help us run different welcoming days, but then six to eight, or our 10 week programme, where it starts off with the sport and the senior teams coming and showcasing and training the sport, but then it’s developing that relationship over a couple of weeks. It’s not a one off event. And then also having a point of contact and engaging with the children and engaging with the parents engaging. And then also showcasing to the parents the benefits of being part of the sports and the club, because it’s not just the the specific physical, it’s the social, it’s, you’re going to school with these children, you might be going to music with this you might go to art with, but you’re also meeting them down the club. So it’s trying to network, I think, for not only the children, but the parents incorporating the children or adults or you’re playing the game, but we’ll have a conversation with your parents as well. And explain the benefits of being part of the club. But also the benefits of networking and knowing someone and maybe if a job comes up or something in the community comes up or they’re looking for someone to do maintenance or, you know, it’s it’s giving the person a contact, actual personal contact and a friendship. I think the one thing that I’ve seen true, a lot of the programmes that have started since a lot of the Ukraine families have come from the war, that friendships have started to create and friendships in not just support but also mutual respect, and also the understanding that they’ve come from a trauma. And then also the, the other part of that is that they’ve come with nothing and they’re starting from scratch. So I think Irish people, we we were very good at that empathy, equity, it becomes natural. And I don’t know why I think it’s maybe one of our unique qualities that we we are we give our time freely we volunteer. It’s in us from our grandparents, great grandparents previous. And it’s probably a quality that we all have. So, when we see people in distress, it’s our first reaction is how do we help? How do we help? What can I do? Just tell me what I need to do. So I’ve seen that in a lot of the clubs who run different programmes since last year and the year before, but also previous with money, with different centres that different clubs have been in contact with our training. They’ve actually worked really good at the relationships first and the trust. And once the trust was established, then they’ve they’ve started looking at other areas and supporting in different ways.


Wow, as I’m listening to you, Ger, two things have really come to the fore. And the first one is, this is a podcast episode about diversity and inclusion and support. But everything you’ve talked to, is bigger than sports. It’s like your it’s like sports, the common denominator where we can bring people together. But it’s opening up into the relationships, the peers, the your buddy system, the community, finding a job it like, you seem to have a very big picture, which was inclusion is and we’ve had these conversations. But you seem to have such a big, wonderful community picture, where sports just seems to be the breadstick or the glue. That’s kind of bringing it together. Would you agree?


Yeah, I think I think probably true. A lot of the programmes designed or the projects are like that the projects I’ve fallen into, or some of the initiatives we’ve done. And maybe the last project that I did do was called trustee understanding of human rights, true sports. And that was with the Council of Europe and many other bodies. And it took good four years of development, and it showcases our basic needs, and it showcases how sport can be the village vehicle for so many other things. It breaks down barriers, because you comment as a person, you come as a player. What it also what it does is it creates competition, it creates friendship, but it also creates a lot of negative stuff as well. But it also what it does is it creates a team. And I think in a lot of sporting bodies, we don’t value what that can create for a person who’s moved to, who’s lost,  who’s come from war, who’s come here as a refugee. That whole you’ve lost something. So when you come to the GA, you’ve gained something but you you don’t realise it and the first maybe a couple of weeks or a couple of months. But now you’ve gained something that is that is probably on power, what what you’ve lost of that kind of family team people support. I would have moved a number of times during my career, but when I moved from maybe Connemara to Dublin, and it’s not a huge move, but it’s very rural, to city life. And the first thing I did was sign up to the GAA club, because I knew that was my support network. So and I say this all the time I come from a family of immigrants, I’ve come from third generation of Scottish who emigrated to Ireland, and all my brothers and sisters have emigrated for work college education, and would have gone to so many other different countries. So I see the value of how much the sports club have given them in their lives and their family lives. And it gives them a place to start their new lives. And I think that they would those small, little connections, maybe my background, and where my family is coming from, I can see that. But also, even in my personal life, I’ve seen that as well. So as you said, it is about being the helicopter view, I do have to look at different lenses because of the job that I’m in the role that I have. So I do try to look at the bigger picture and look to the future and where we want to go. But also as well as that. What we do well what our strengths are and sometimes we don’t communicate that and sometimes that’s where we need to maybe reach out a little bit more.

Mags  29:39

Yeah, it’s really again, coming back to what inclusion is, is welcoming people where they are ash and valuing the contributions that they can make and building a foundation on that. I think it’s a lovely approach that you were taken on. It’s such an entity Use of approach. The other thing that really jumped out to me when you were talking is often you know, you get experts into a room, and you are an expert in diversity, mutation and sports. And they offer advice, and they give advice. Everything you have talked about here is from a learning perspective, and what either you learn or what other people are learning. So whether it’s your coaches, your volunteers, the players themselves, your own personal and professional learning, is the one key learning that you would take. I mean, from your years of experience, there’s so much there.

Ger 30:37

While I think probably the maybe the one learning that made the most impact maybe on me was we launched a national inclusion day in June 2019, when I came into the organisation, and a specific mother called me and actually got to get a bit emotional. But she called me to say that it was the first time ever that she felt her daughter was actually included in the GAA, and sorry, that bit emotional, but it’s an image, it’s voice memo, it’s ingrained in my head, it’s something that I cherish. And it’s also something that sometimes one person can make a huge effect on you. And I think that’s what I found is from it, sometimes it’s not apparent sometimes is it I think it’s, it’s knowing that you’ve helped one person. And that I think, for me, I don’t need the accolade or don’t need a lot of stuff. But to know that I had changed the life of one person, one little girl was quite, probably overwhelming for me and quite a lot to take in. But it, it meant so much to me that I was able to change that for that one young girl with a disability. And she has bloomed and blossomed. And that since 2019, she now has a team around her, she now has people when her mother moves on, or anything does, she has a team of people, she has a community of people that will look out for her, that will cherish her that will check in on her. And probably that was one of the things I would have learned in Special Olympics is that no one ever leaves the club and Special Olympics because you’re there for life. Whereas in GAA and other sports, you can come and go and leave a club whenever you want. But that that knowing that no matter what happened to you in life, that you knew there was other people who would take care of your family or take care of people that you loved. I think sometimes we we think of our families that will do that. But also our community do that for us as well. And that was probably one of the things that stood out for me in probably my work here. And like I’d have so many other incidents. But I think probably the one after that the one after that is I suppose and it’s my own daughter, and when some of the accolades and stuff that have happened over the years, and but for her to, to go into teaching, which is her love and her girl, but also to her first job is to work as a teacher and also work in the AC unit. And to come home to me and say, the work you have done is amazing. Because I use it every day, I use your case studies, I use some of the stuff you did with Special Olympics, I use some of the stuff you’ve done. So my daughter is now using a lot of the work and implementation plans and projects that I that I had done many, many years ago. And she seen the value for that. And that was the one thing for me is that I know I need to pass it on. I know that I need to share my knowledge. I know that podcasts and any information, any programme and r&d initiative I’ve done or any barriers I’ve come up against is is to share that with other people. And I think they’re probably I know, it’s more than one but they’re probably two key things for me is that I’ve made the world probably a better place for my daughter, but also then for other people’s daughters as well. So I think probably that’s something that I’ve always aspired to share,

Mags 34:11

You have given me my moment of joy for today. And if people I mean, you can hear the passion in your voice, but if people could actually see the emotion and the passion and pride in your daughter in your voice, and the pride you have for that other mommies daughter that you have, it’s it’s just wonderful. And you finished all of that by saying you will do whatever you can do to share and to pass it on. And as we are coming to the end of our conversation, I’m going to ask you to do some sharing. Are there any resources or anything for further independent learning anywhere that people listening to this can go to learn more about inclusion and diversity in sport?

Ger 34:53

Yeah, so I would have shared everything and put everything first thing as I said was communication. So um, Our Website http://www.ge.ie. And you go into community and help. So when you go on to the GAA website, you will look for my GAA and a section will come up community and health. And it showcases our seven areas of work. And one of them is diversity and inclusion along with mental health, physical health, green clubs and youth development. But diversity inclusion is there, you’ll actually see my picture on it with one of my good friend Sarah Craig, one of the wheelchair Kimochi players, and there’s resources, there’s some session plans, there’s training through frameworks, there’s education leaflets, there’s inclusion policies, everything that I’ve worked on, since coming into the organisation 2019 Is there, and also the main links to the human rights, the trust programme, understanding human rights to sport is there. And then also, there’s the GA elearning website as well, which has everything to do with GAA for all and games for all. So both of them, I have all the resources videos, if it’s interactive, and then all the other templates and resources are there as well. And I would have worked very closely with the Centre for diversity and inclusion in DCU, as well. So there’s a lot of there’s a lot of ways that we crossover to different academia as well as true sporting field as well,

Mags 36:24

Super, it sounds like you literally have a one click stop, first of all, and I will add the link at the bottom of the podcast for people just to be able to access it without going looking for us. Sure, any final words that you would like to share with everyone before we finish up tonight,

Ger 36:43

Probably final words for me is that first it it is quite complex when you go into diversity and inclusion, I’ve developed over the years as well and experiences is very good. And asking other people like yourself, Margaret. And other people, too, when you come to challenges or have mentors or people that you can sound thing are to have sounding boards, I would have I work as part of a team and I continue to have those supports. And I think you need them you need to network with other people who are in diversity and inclusion and who would like to you to do a lot of the work as well with them. I think building those those networks is crucial when you’re designing new programmes and all of that, but also as well working with the likes of the universities, with other stakeholders like services and agencies. More and more, I tried to bring a lot of people in instead of trying to go it alone. And I think that’s one of the things is that we can all improve by communicating a little bit more and communicating a little bit directly. But like yourself, Margaret, a lot of the work from the Universal Design Learning and some of the webinars that you would have introduced me to and even the Twitter and social media and all the work you’ve done that has definitely benefited a lot of the resources from Universal Design Learning and even some of the terminology I’ve used a lot and I’ve shared it with all the games promotion officers and people I come into contact so I think it’s it’s snowing, the information is great. We we really need to share it among each others as easy as we can. But I also find networking with you’d like to thank of yourself, Margaret and other people who can continue to inform us what’s happening if we don’t have the time to go looking. Yeah,

Mags 38:37

And I love and I’m gonna end on there. See you said, bringing other people in rather than going It alone. And I think that actually just sums up you as a person because I know you as a person. It just sums you up. And it sums up your work and it goes back to that importance of sharing. So on that note, I will say goodbye to everyone. Thank you so much for joining myself and Ger for talking about all things inclusion, and I hope you will all join me again soon. Thank you again Ger so much for sharing with us today.

Ger 39:08

You’re very welcome. Go raibh maith agaid (Irish for thank you)

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