S2 Ep3: Talking about Level 1 and Level 2 Learning Programmes with Lisa Kelly

In this conversation Lisa talks with me about the importance of an inclusive curriculum for every student. She shares her experiences as a teacher accidentally finding Level 2 Learning Programmes (L2LPs) before talking about her current role as Junior Cycle for Teachers (JCT) Team Leader for Level 1 Learning Programmes (L1LPs) and L2LPs.

Resources from this episode



Transcript of this episode


Level one learning programmes, level two learning programmes, students support, learning


Mags, Lisa Kelly


Today I am talking with Lisa Kelly.

Lisa is  the Junior Cycle for Teachers (JCT) Team Leader for L1LPs (level 1 learning programmes) and L2LPs (level 2 learning programmes).  In her role, Lisa leads a team of  advisors and associates who support both special and mainstream schools in the implementation of the Level 1 and Level 2 Learning Programmes.

Lisa is seconded from the Patrician Secondary School in Newbridge Co. Kildare, where she worked as an SEN and English teacher

Lisa, we first met in 2018 when we worked together on L1LPs. Your passion for inclusive education was infectious and you carried this passion into your work in JCT. We have had many a along conversation on inclusive practices in Irish schools and how an inclusive curriculum should work. That is why I am so delighted to be chatting with you today about your continued work in this area and your hopes for the future of inclusive education.

Lisa Kelly  00:00

Thanks so much for inviting me along today. Margaret. It’s my pleasure to come and chat all things inclusion. And I’m looking forward to our conversation.

Mags  00:07

Super. Okay, so lets start off with an easy one. Lisa, can you start off by telling us a little bit about yourself, your background, and what it was that led you to your current role, designing and delivering CPD and support on the level one and level two learning programmes to teachers.

Lisa Kelly  00:26

Well, I suppose like lots of teachers, I come from a family of teachers, I come from a house of teachers. And my mother was involved in remedial education, which is in the history of their education system. And so always in our heads we talked about at the dinner table, and awareness of students who couldn’t access education who didn’t experience or participate in education, like I did, and my siblings said, so that was an awareness I carried from a very young age. And I suppose when I began Teacher Education Training, then it became very obvious that as a teacher, we have a responsibility to include all our students. But also we have tools to include all of our students. And I first discovered level one,  level two learning programmes when I was looking for tools to include students. In my classroom in a mainstream post primary school where there were students with general learning difficulties, we had exhausted the  continuum support, but we still were not meeting the needs of the students in the way that we should. So that’s how I found level two learning programmes. I took a position as an associate under Sarah Nally,, the team leader at the time, and I absolutely adored it and got sucked in then I suppose to the level on a level two words. And I became an advisor the following year, and then I was lucky enough to become team leader then when Sarah left.

Mags  01:54

 Thanks, Lisa. So Lisa, you talked about our responsibility as educators to include all students, and the tools that we need to bring in. And you talk specifically then about students with general learning disabilities or GLDs And the level two learning programmes, can you take a step back and explain to our listeners what GLDs are are in very teacher friendly language, and then what the L2LPs are as a tool for the students.

Lisa Kelly  02:24

So a student with a GLD , or a person has a diagnosis of a GLD, they would struggle to achieve learning across the board. So it’s not a specific learning difficulty, they’re barriers to learning will be multiple, and it will kind of span the curriculum. So they will struggle with things like motor skills, cognisance, and ability or cognitive barriers to learning will appear. Where memory is a is a difficulty working memory processing speeds, literacy, you know, things that lots of our curriculum at level three are built on –  working memory, processing speeds, literacy. And there are there are supports for students who struggle with literacy, there are supports for students who struggle with working memory. But for a child, a student, or a child who struggles across the board, all of those supports will be put in place, but still a student will not be able to achieve or engage with level three, and curriculum, the subjects that are aligned to level three. And I suppose in our school, we use the continuum of support very successfully, all of the skills are involved in some of the interventions, some and few. And there were students that even after the few and we had exhausted everything, we still couldn’t meet their needs, they still were not able to access a broad and balanced curriculum. So we were looking for something to fill that gap that would be meaningful for those students. And that’s what’s really crucial about level two learning programmes is the learning that’s in those PLUs and the short courses are meaningful and are suitable for that context of students, that cohort of students they’re age appropriate. And they’re designed to meet those needs in social barriers or literacy or numeracy across the board. But the students can experience that learning through English, maths, geography, Gaeilge, through the subjects, but their learning is at a level of which they can achieve and the cruc,  another crucial piece is that learning can be recognised. So for years as SEN teachers, special education teachers, we taught students how to read timetables, how to read clocks, and to looked after themselves in personal care how to make relationships. And we taught all of that in our resource or learning support time, but the students never got recognition for that learning. The recognition wasn’t exam certificates, and the exam maybe didn’t reflect all of the other learning that went on for that students.

Mags  05:03

So you’ve, you’ve hit upon what I consider three important words there, barriers, access and recognition. And we’ve spoken about this before that the barrier is within the curriculum and for you the barrier was within the old junior cert curriculum. And if I’m hearing you correctly, the level two learning programmes as a tool, it’s a tool because it’s part of the junior cycle curriculum. So it’s given, its removing the barrier from the level three, to access level three and level two and be recognised for what you achieved.

Lisa Kelly  05:41

Yeah, it’s a tool to include those students who otherwise  wouldn’t and weren’t able to be included in a meaningful way and have their learning recognised. Teachers have differenciated learning in classrooms for years. But they couldn’t differentiate the exam, you could put in your supports. But some, like specific supports are not enough for students of GLD, some students with GLD to achieve those exams. So level two is a tool that allows these students now to be included in their subject classes to be included in the classes of their students and wellbeing, etc. With their peers. But it’s a tool for the teacher because that learning is appropriate for those students, they will be able to achieve it.They will be able to action their learning in a way that is suitable for them. And so it’s a tool to include really the students but also to have their learning recognised.

Mags  06:37

Absolutely, and we’re talking predominantly about our L2LPS at the moment. And students who are participating in  L2LPS will be in mainstream schools and will be in special classes and they will be in special schools. And just over lunch before we come in today, we talked about the importance of not disadvantaging our students based on their setting. Now, I know some, I experienced that a lot of teachers will see level two learning programmes and they’ll  say, okay, I can do some of that with my students. But then we go to the level one learning programmes. And this is where the meaningful comes in for us. Because sometimes teachers go, how can we give those kids a meaningful education, we need to do X, Y, and Z that has nothing to do with the junior cycle (inaudible). So can you talk us through how level one learning programmes offer meaningful participation and recognition for the students doing that programme.

Lisa Kelly  07:34

And what students will be doing  it? Yeah, so students who follow level one learning programme, as you know, are students who have a cognitive  am diagnosis of a moderate severe, or profound general learning difficulty. And those students are I think, what’s crucial about the level on learning programmes is it’s the age appropriateness. So those students are at an early cognitive development age, but they are still teenagers, they are still post primary age students, and they should be engaging in a curriculum that’s post-primary age appropraite, regardless of their cognitive development age. So what level one learning programmes does it takes those subjects and it makes them accessible, the learning is relevant is meaningful. The progression pathways are a great tool, because sometimes, as a teacher, it can be difficult to recognise learning when it’s happening at level one, because that learning will look very different to students who’s engaging in level three or level four, even level five and leaving cert, which is where lots of mainstream teachers will be assessing loss of their learning or their teaching. So the progression pathways mean that every child can achieve learning at level one. And you know, when we deliver CPD level on own programmes, you always use a line that says level one recognises all and any learning and that’s crucial. Level one learning programmes and the introduction of them to the Irish education system means every child of junior cycle age can receive an award or a certificate that will recognise their learning. It doesn’t matter if your certificate shows 10 level three subjects and my shows are full level one and programme, six PLUs and two courses we both get the same Junior cycle profile of achievements. It also doesn’t matter if you complete your as in a special school or I’m in a mainstream school. It doesn’t none of that matters. It is true accuracy. There. We all general JCPS 15 or16 years of age. That was a big piece in the education system. It means a lot for parents. It means a lot for students, but it also means a lot for the teachers or the students who are teaching these students sometimes who have complex medical needs and outside the GLD diagnosis, the recognition of their teaching, you know that they have an age appropriate programme. They’re not still looking to a primary curriculum to meet the needs of a child who’s 15 or 16 years of age in front of them.

Mags  10:00

And like one thing for me that it has gotten rid of is the tokenism. I used to hate Junior cert results, say where my students were getting fake certs. And they had killed themselves to do their work. And we had to give QQI’s which were for adults, yes. But they gotta tokenistic cert to recognise it on the day. And this removes all of this. And you’ve talked about what it does for teachers as well. And we know that in special schools, the teachers in special schools that can do it all because they have to do it all. And they will make whatever is thrown at them successful for their students and for the families and for their community. And I know, there’s like amazing examples, and we hear about the special school examples all the time. But for level one, we don’t always hear about the post-primary. And I know that you’re seeing excellent inclusion of students in level one, enforce primary schools, could you share an example you don’t need to.

Lisa Kelly  10:58

But it is a challenge, you know, in a mainstream school, where most of your students or teachers and students, I suppose, are engaging in level three, level five, but it’s particularly if you don’t have a special class, but where there is willingness to put the students first to get to know your students. I mean, Mags was nodding along here furiously because every student is an individual, you know, a student,  two students with GLD are going to vary as much as two people with brown hair. It’s the same thing, its only part of their identity. So get getting to know the student as an individual getting to know their strengths. Students who are engaging in level one learning programmes, their weaknesses will be very well documented, they’ll be on every assessments done, they’ll have lots of paperwork saying they’re not able to do this. They’re below average, thet’re way below, like you know, they have all of that deficit language, but get to know what can that students do. What are they able to do? What do they enjoy, what will make them happy and start there and workout- and the pieces really important is a level one learning programme and a level two two programme are individualised, individualised programmes of learning. So whether they should engage in the six PLUS, or the five PLUs or two short course, what that engagement looks like, what they will achieve, where that happened, that should be done on an individual basis. So getting to know the student. where a school knows their students, they know, their likes, their dislikes, their interests, and their strengths. That’s where it works really well. And the teachers have a willingness to include their students in their classrooms. But also they have an awareness that their learning for that student is going to be different to level three. So their assessments would have to change slightly in the classroom. Same with some of their teaching methodologies, but that only strengthens the experience for all of the students in that classroom as a result of that. So it’s absolutely been done the very I suppose in a great way. But like everything, it’s you hear about more one side more than the other. And I suppose a bit like the students, it’s easier to talk about the challenges than the successes or the strengths sometimes. Yeah, but there are great examples.

Mags  13:13

And I know, because you’ve just mentioned challenges there. A lot of teachers when they hear about level ones, level twos, the first challenge they see is assessment, how can they sit a junior cycle exam? level one to level two is back to that individualised, your assessing in a way that best suits the students strategy. Can you talk about that.

Lisa Kelly  13:35

Subject CBAS I mean, they’re, you know, they’re definitely a bone of contention. So in some cases, but a CB, every CBA is a very broad classroom based assessments. And you can differentiate a CBA for a student on level one or level two, beyond what’s described in those assessment guidelines for that subject’s CBA to very easily generate assessment of learning at level one and level two, in a mainstream class without sometimes that student even been aware their assessment has been differentiated for. And there are wonderful examples of that been done in the music classroom in the business studies classroom. You know, wants to mention a few teams and teachers who are talking to JCT about how they’re doing that. So the CBA has really opened up I suppose, away from to assess this learning it has to be in a paper form. But in a special school as well. It takes a little bit of pressure off for teachers who would have felt well to assess they need to be at the table, it  needs to be tabletop work. Now if the student is most comfortable with water or in the sensory room, well then the assessments can happen in the sensory room or at the water team and they don’t have to be taken away from that to assess the learning. So the individual approach to assessment, the idea that every portfolio will look different and should look different, because it’s each individual child’s portfolios of learning. So the evidence should be different. I mean, we talked earlier about other programmes where every portfolio was identical. But how much of that was the student’s own work? Level one and level two is the student’s own work? Therefore, no portfolio should look identical because they’re individuals. They’re not the same people.

Mags  15:18

Yeah, it’s about the teacher, giving them choice, not tabletop. And if tabletop is where they’re comfortable thhen tabletop, but that there’s the other choice of sensory rooms water based to go into the coffee shop. I mean, I’ve seen a lot of them out there. And I think the fact that you said that and he said, This is the students choices, what it’s them, yes, is what makes this so successful and so meaningful.

Lisa Kelly  15:45

And I think as well, as a teacher and as a school leader, you have to have confidence that you give the choices, okay? You know, that you don’t know today you’re a student mightchoose table top tomorrow, they might to choose sensory room, so it’s not a given Lisa does all of her exams in the special class, or does all of our assessments, you know, even that word exam, I use it myself, but you know, basically, it’s all for assessments, and the same to that there’s choice and flexibility. I always say to teachers, or school, try it, if it doesn’t work, you can go back, and you can try something else. But if you don’t try, you won’t know. So is that willingness to be flexible, but to have the confidence that assessments of all of those ways, you’ve just taught me visual video audio, that is as appropriate and as meaningful as somebody who can do a three hour exam. One is not higher order

Mags  16:40

And you’re kind of doing a bit of myth busting there, around average, there is no average student. You’ve already talked about individualised programmes, there is no average assessment mode for every student as well. That’s so so important.

Lisa Kelly  16:55

Yeah, and the flexibility of level one and level two allows for that in a way that maybe other parts of the system don’t allow where we’re still kinda focused a little bit on final exam. But level one and level two does allow for that. And I think it has taken schools and teachers a little bit of time to get used to this, that this is appropriate assessments and this, you know, and but it’s when when they take it on board, it’s fabulous, because you can see the pressure melt away from students, and from a teacher because the evidence can be gathered they can be assessed in a way that’s meaningful for the student. This just keeps coming back to the way we meaningful to that individual child.

Mags  17:33

And you talked about the CBA, the classroom based assessment for our students in level one, the level twos, but actually they’re not confined to level one or level two, they are a part of the junior cycle  mode of assessment

Lisa Kelly  17:46

Yes, absolutely. And I mean, the flexibility even in junior cycle goes as far as a student is following  a level one learning programme, if they’re able to engage, sorry our level two learning programme student, is they are able to engage in the CBA, as outlined in the assessment level three assessment guidelines they can have that CBA reported under JCPA, without the need to sit the final exam. So they could have English business studies, maths, Gaeilge perhaps, if they were an Gaeilge Speaker, on their JCPA  without having to sit the SEC exam. So I mean, the flexibility is there. But it’s just to trust the flexibility. And I think the most important part is to start with that individual students, the identified strengths and needs of that student is meaningful, is purposeful and builds from there.

Mags  18:36

Absolutely. So it really is thinking about our students and how we can facilitare the students through choice and flexibility and removing those barriers to show their best selves not want a standard, or average way of assessment will tell us Yeah, what they can show through that mode.

Lisa Kelly  18:52

Yes, because I think these students, I mean, the JCPA doesn’t allow for any negative reporting at level one or level two, there’s only positive descriptors at level one and level two. And I think the meaning behind that, or the reason behind that is because these students will have done lots of assessments where they have gotten deficit results, they have gotten negatives. I have talked about that already, their parents will have seen all of this paperwork, in some instances, that talks about deficits and what they’re not able to do. And it’s overlooked the positives. I mean, anybody in the in the schools who fills out things like reasonable accommodation forms or you know, supports forms for support, you have to look at the deficit, you can’t write about the wonderful things the students can do and junior cycle allows for a celebration. The flexibility allows for that celebration of the individual students, you know, other ways of learning even in terms of the well being programme now, and the students who engage in level one and level two must engage in the programme of wellbeing, but it doesn’t have to be the 400 hours. So if going to the yoga is causing LIsa distress she doesn’t have to go to it because it’s part of her wellbeing programme. You know, that flexibility is really the joy in terms of inclusion at junior cycle, but it comes I suppose it there needs, there’s a need for some supports. And that’s our job to have to support teachers upskill in this flexibility, because it’s not as structured or as rigid as it was in the past, for some students, at least,

Mags  20:25

Absolutely. And Lisa, like, again, I wish some people could see these conversations, that the passion is the thing. And the passion is oozing out of you for something you’ve found by accident, as have a lot of us. So I want to speak on, because you’ve like, I mean, sold us on the students some of the benefits for this. But you’ve moved away from teaching the students to actually supporting the teachers who are now teaching the students, so they don’t have to find something by accident – to know that the support is there. Can you tell us a little bit about that journey for you?

Lisa Kelly  20:59

Yeah so, I suppose we were trying to get the word out about level two, you know, and so I began this job, you know, and we were clusters and we were in different places. And now people are coming to us and seek us out, but we’re very, even the CPD we provide is bespoke CPD to individual schools, because how it works in each school will look different. And we pride ourselves on the fact that we don’t we run information sessions, but certainly to support a teacher in school, it needs to be individualised because they are a school with their own culture with their own systems, their own resources, their individual students. And it can be very sensitive, sometimes the information that’s shared during this support, and, yes, we facilitate CPD. And that’s a very important part of our job. But our team supports the teachers to support the students. And I would pride myself to think that anybody who has been in contact with our team would talk about that support elements. We don’t visit a school, spend an hour and a half, two hours and then disappear into thin air. We’re there at the end of the phone, we’re there at the end of the emails, but also our colleagues at JCT have really taken that support now to I’m not a music teacher, I can’t talk about level two in the music classroom, but the music team can the business studies can the maths team can. So all of our colleagues have  taken that, JCIS have taken that in. Whole school structures, what’s the processes and structures that are these enemies to school, and then our own team have worked very hard to support special schools. I mean, he’s mentioned them already special students in one building, and design and deliver a curriculum that’s primary, some early years primary post primary Junior cycle, senior cyber school developed. You know, in some classrooms, you could have students engaging in two different curricula in front of you and teachers planning is trying to do all that. So when we visit a special school, that CPD is designed for that context. It’s not designed for a mainstream school. It’s designed for the teachers who are faced with those challenges, which are different to those in a mainstream school. And so again, it’s about supporting them where they’re at. And always a teacher who comes to us has their students at minds, you know, they want to do the best for their students. They want to encapsulate as much of that student’s strength and push them to reach their full potential as much as they can. And it’s our job to try and support them. And which is comes with difficulties, but it’s certainly an honour I always say, and I still say I’m very lucky to do this job because I get to work with teachers and students who care. You know, that’s really important. That’s what that’s what motivates me and drives me.

Mags  23:53

It is really about that care. And again, another conversation we’ve had, if you’re a caring and inclusive teacher, then you’re a good teacher. We’ll stop just for people who are listening because you talked about our team and we, that is the level one level two team on JCT. And listeners, we’ll have the Twitter tag and resources at the end of the transcript for you as well. Lisa, you were talking there about Junior cycle. You were also talking about the future you were talking about school developed senior cycle and I know you you believe in inclusive education at all levels, and that doesn’t stop regardless. So what are your hopes and your aspirations for the future? And these are personal. Lisa, warning,  Lisa not speaking for JCT or any organisation here. Laughter. Lisa is just making her personal views on what she would like.

Lisa Kelly  24:51

Am personally, I think it would be really important that senior cycle has the same flexibility And I think further Ed has come a long way in terms of accessibility, flexibility. I mean, even when you look at, you know, Maynooth or other universities, how they are assessed now in Further Education has changed dramatically, even in the last five years, you know, so I see like senior cycle is this  little block, well not so little, but this gap that needs to be filled, and it’s that flexibility , that it will allow me follow a path for this individual for I am, I recognise my learning, but it will also allow the students who is highly academic, who that’s where their strength lies, to excel to have their aspirations and hopes met and their learning recognise, it needs to be flexible, it needs to be individualised. I think the breadth of our curriculum is something that’s very important. We don’t narrow students options at a very young age. And I think that’s a strength of the Irish education system. So I think that’s important. I mean, I’m writing a wish list here. In an ideal world, that’s what it would be. And I think as well, it’s important to recognise that, as well as the curricular option, there has to be setting options as well. But it’s not all one, we’re not all going to be in one building happy clappy holding hands. Like there are settings that are correct or that are suitable for certain people. And people are more comfortable in it, their needs can be met best. And so it’s important that those settings are maintained, and that students are allowed the flexibility to engage in the curriculum at different settings, as you mentioned at the beginning of the chat, as students shouldn’t be penalised because of where they engage in their education. So regardless of where they engage in us, the same flexibility applies that spearing in junior cycle. So it has to be part of senior cycle. But I’m only one voice there are 1000s of voices included in this, you know, and, and I do think what he what he think is important, and it does give me hope is that they are listening to voices, there’s a lot of opportunities for engagements, and teachers should use their voices. Because at 15, or 16, how many of us knew what we wanted for leaving cert? You know what I mean? And even students that don’t have a GLD? Because if you ask them, What would you like to look like, you know, what’s going to be different. So as a teacher’s, and as schools as we have the broader view, we can see what’s happened in the past, where they’re going into further aids, and how we might best prepare them. Because I think a big part of junior cycle change, and it will be senior cycle changes, the societal change. We’re not information driven anymore. We don’t need to remember phone numbers and, you know, answers off by heart, but we need to be able to manage information in a way that we didn’t need to do previously. So I think senior cycle should match all thta.. And but also, I think it’s important to realise that school is only part of your education, teachers cannot solve all the problems of the world, you know, so there needs to be a recognition in that as well. You know, we prepare them (could not decipher), but there’s other parts of the family, the community, you know, other parts of society play a very important role in educating people and in educating young people. And that should form part of the senior cycle. A piece I think that’s missing, perhaps on the junior cycle, that I hope will be part of the senior cycle is the transition out. You know, in junior cycle lots of schools, I know that partners are working on the transition into post primary, that’s a few cells a little bit missing in junior cycle. In the early days, at least senior cycle has a focus on preparing them to transition  out, you know, and that goes for a student who is highly academic will be going out to medicine, to a student maybe who’s not as academic who might be going into day services or into supported employment, that they are supported in their transition, because we all know students who have struggled with that transition as a result of lots of barriers and size of students who have maybe have more of a recognised diagnosis of a barrier.

Mags  24:56

That’s it. I think, I think you would agree with me, it’s hard to work on that transition piece. There really needs to be a change in how we think about how far our students with GLD can go. Yeah, because first we caped it at primary.

Lisa Kelly  29:35


Mags  29:36

Until level one and level two we capped it. They can only l learn as far as sixth class and then we repeat the books to junior, and now we’ve got our junior cycle. There is that gap work has been done to close that gap. But we don’t want another gap coming at the end of that. So we can’t close our minds off and say they can only get so far.

Lisa Kelly  29:58

I do think it’s  more about when we talk about the meaningful, the relevant, we don’t talk about curtailing or pigeonholing students. Nobody knows an individual’s potential, we can guess it, we can certainly assess, and it certainly is in the classroom but, I do think it’s important that progression options are going to be available at senior cycle and beyond, that it allows for every individual student to reach their potential. So if that is to continue on at level one, all the way through your post primary years, then that’s where your, you know, your potential is best met. If it is that you’ll complete some level two and some level four, that that can be met aswell. And I do think it’s important that where flexibility lies now that a student can engage in all three levels of junior cycle if it meets the individual students needs, that the same should happen at cycle, that you shouldn’t you should be able to engage in level five, level four, level three, if that’s what your individual strengths and needs mean? Because where they go to from post primary will allow for that flexibility, because that’s (senior cycle) where the narrowing happens. So if we don’t allow students to engage or to access learning at level three level four level at senior cycle, how do we know what they can achieve at those levels? So therefore, how do we know what they can achieve beyond? If you were I had never engaged in study at level 9, 10, 44 In your case how would you know you couldn’t achieve this? You know, so it is just that it’s flexibility as well. It’s not saying every child that completes a level 2 learning programme must do this pathway. There should be no generic statements about that, you know, around students who follows level one or level two. An individual child follows a level two or level one, therefore an individual child follow up programme at cycle that allows that individualization.

Mags  31:59

Absolutely. And you know, when it comes back to it comes back to inclusion been about support, and challenge.

Lisa Kelly  32:06


Mags  32:07

And I think sometimes with the best intentions in the world, we forget about the and challenge.

Lisa Kelly  32:12

Yes, and youand I have talked in the past about in a class in a school, you have the privilege of sometimes been able to challenge the students beyond a boundary that might exist in other areas. We all know, students who’d only drink as a yellow cup or a blue bar, you know, they’re set in their ways. But that routine can be broken in a school environment where it’s controlled, right? See, for the students become aware of themselves that it comes back to the fact that these are young adults, they’re not small children anymore. So just like we are educating our other young adults, who told her that he has to be independent, to look after themselves, we have to do the same for our students who has GLD or  other barriers for learning, but in an appropriate manner, you know, for that individual child. But really, it’s important that we open the students eyes and their parents to the potential that exists there, you know, for those students, and that whatever their certification looks like, you will allow for celebration of this?

Mags  33:13

Absolutely. Again, everything comes back to the individual learner, the strengths, and what we can do to celebrate them. Yeah, to reach their potential, not our expectations expected potential of them. Lisa, there’s like so much food for thought there and so much, things, that I think will raise question for our listeners, which I think is fantastic. Well, we are coming to the end of our conversation very sadly, because I know we could go on forever. Are there any resources for further independent learning that you would like to share with us today?

Lisa Kelly  33:49

I suppose from level one and level two learning programmes, we have a fabulous team of associates and advisors to base and earlier and our associates are in the classroom day in day out. And then they work with us part time. And they give real examples – in my classroom, this is how I assess learning. You know, this is how I teach this particular short course and their resources. It doesn’t mean when you listen and you hear one of our associates you’d be able to copy it exactly as she does. She did it for one individual student or a group of students. But it will give you some ideas and give you some food for thought? I would say start with that individual child, get to know your your students, what do they like what they dislike, and it’s sometimes it can be really hard to find what they like what they’re good at. Because remember, as adolescents as well, they will have learned behaviours. So they will have learned dependency. Well, if I say I can’t write, I’d never have to pick up a pencil. You know, if I’d say I can’t do this, I’ve never done Art, I can’t do Art, I’ve never done Art. When we hear all of those kinds of learned barriers Across the board, not just students to follow an level 2 learning programme, so get to know your students. You know, there are lots of resources out there to help you to get to know your students talk to other adults who work with that students and find out from them as well. But the resource, like our webinars are there, we have some fabulous resources on our website for assessments, in terms of assessing learning at different levels within the classroom. For the subjects, teachers, I’d say look at your subject pages, they each have a level to learn the programmes and Activities section on their resources section. Now, this fabulous stuff they are.  Leadership recently did a webinar on level tWO loan programmes and also supporting students with special education needs. So the resources are there in terms of individual learning, but we’re always very happy to answer email queries individually, from from parents or from schools or teachers.

Mags  35:55

And I’m delighted that you’ve actually mentioned the other subjects because sometimes schools tkae thta as the responsibility of special education teacher, mainstream teachers who want to learn more don’t know where to go or where to start. So you know, we’ve up there are suggestions, aligning level one or two learning outcomes to your subject. Yeah, now comes is really helpful. I mean, they saved me in a bind.

Lisa Kelly  36:18

Yeah. So I think as well, in a school context, we all know now students, especially education needs students who follow a level one or level two learning programme are included in that group  of students and are everybody’s responsibility. They’re not going to be remediated as they were, in my mother’s time, right, some students spent more time with my mother than their classroom teacher in a primary school. So therefore, in an organisation like JCT, it’s paramount that everybody talks about it. I mean, my colleagues are probably sick listening to me and beating the drum and our team beating the drum, but they have to because they are the subject experts. I can’t, I can support a geography teacher and what a level 2 learning programme looks like or a  level one, but it can’t actually talk geography to them, because it’s not my subject. So those sorts of resources are really important and are a great resource. And they’re available to subjects, CPD and through the paces on the websites. Yeah,

Mags  37:13

And they are, all of these links will be at the end of the transcript for your listeners. But they genuinely are such a good support and such a good resource for every teacher, not just a special ed teacher, but the subject teacher, just to give you a place to start. Lisa, we are honestly coming to the end, any final words that you would like to share with everyone.

Lisa Kelly  37:36

Just remember, each student is an individual. And also just remember, you can only do so much. I think, in my work, we need more and more teachers who feel they’re not good enough, thet’re not doing enough. You can only do what you can do. And like I said, teachers and education teachers and schools only are part of the education as an individual sees. So it’s important to remember that. And your greatest resource is your own school, the colleagues around you who are teaching those students, what works for them, what doesn’t work for them. That’s a great resource to use. But just remember, each child is an individual. And you can only do so much I suppose that would be my parting words.

Mags  38:21

It’s, it’s a lovely way to end and something that we say all the time, starting with one small change, and just building there. I think that’s a lovely way to end the conversation. So on that note, I’d say goodbye to everyone. Thank you so much for joining myself and Lisa for talking about all things inclusion, and I hope that you would join me again soon. Thank you again, Lisa for really just insightful and heartwarming and hopeful conversation and thanks for sharing with us today some

Lisa Kelly  38:50

You’re very welcome Mags

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